Home » Public » New Beginnings » Grasping hold of the plain truth (Body mutilation)
| Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #102133] |
Sun, 30 May 2010 08:48  |
Anonymous  |
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I read several articles this morning that brought me to tears. The articles addressed the extreme lengths that some TS women will go to to achieve a figure, a very feminine shape. I think perhaps many G.D. women get lost/confused along the journey about what transitioning is really all about. Primarily it is to align one 's internal identity with one 's body. What is reasonable/sane and what qualifies as mental illness???
Countless women are born with "man hands", "man feet", "broad shoulders", "no hips to speak off", "no waistline", "ugly legs",
"hairy arms", "facial hair", etc.
Some of these issues can be addressed, some cannot.
What is reasonable for a sane person to do to their body to align and achieve fruition???
I ask truly, what is reasonable???
Facial Feminization Surgery, I believe with all of my being that if one can afford this procedure it is life altering on multiple levels.
Removing ribs to achieve a waistline, is this sane?
Removing toes to be able to where certain shoes, is this sane?
Having a prosthetic device surgically attached to one 's hips to have hips, is this sane?
What is sane and what is over the top???
[Updated on: Sat, 05 June 2010 11:43] by Moderator
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #102166 is a reply to message #102165 ] |
Sun, 30 May 2010 11:43  |
Derrie
Messages: 21526
Registered: October 2007 |
Senior Member
BL3D
Chief Instigator
First Officer |
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Wow, that's wonderful. I presume they are all ok with your transition?
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ok?
OK?
OH YES! We all had a party last weekend(a mini family reunion)....the remaining sisters (6) and some of the cousins. They are wonderful people.....my transition was a non event for them. Many actually wondered WHY I waited so long! Really
Talk about LOVE. We have plenty.
[Updated on: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:45]
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #102723 is a reply to message #102711 ] |
Wed, 02 June 2010 15:51 |
| Anonymous |
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"Hijacked thread"
No, how could that be so, an administrator or two has jumped on the humor band wagon. You must have thought I was sharing a serious subject hoping for considerate insightful replies.
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #102727 is a reply to message #102723 ] |
Wed, 02 June 2010 16:00 |
Narcheska 
Messages: 961
Registered: October 2009 |
Senior Member |
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| Anonymous wrote on Thu, 03 June 2010 00:51 | "Hijacked thread"
No, how could that be so, an administrator or two has jumped on the humor band wagon. You must have thought I was sharing a serious subject hoping for considerate insightful replies.
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Without a sense of humor it's quite hard to stay sane through transition 
Ok, an hopefully considerate insightful reply:
| Quote: |
Removing ribs to achieve a waistline, is this sane?
Removing toes to be able to where certain shoes, is this sane?
Having a prosthetic device surgically attached to one 's hips to have hips, is this sane?
What is sane and what is over the top???
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I don't think that any of these things you mentioned here are healthy. But if doing unhealthy things are a measure of sanity, why do people eat junk food, why do people smoke, why do people abuse drugs, alcohol, ... You can't call the entire world insane can you?
If you base sanity on what is thought of as socially acceptable in the culture you live in, you'll probably find things that happen in other cultures that you think of as insane. Religion could be considered a similar thing.
I think sanity is a very subjective thing. Someone who's considered insane by society doesn't always see himself as insane, unless it's been made abundantly clear to him that there is something very wrong with him.
Ah, this is so confusing!!! 
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #103081 is a reply to message #103048 ] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 04:45 |
| Anonymous |
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Hilary...
Thank you for thoughtful response. You see, I am not considering rib removal, I am not considering amputation of my little toes. Of late I have been reading extensively about the lengths that some T.S./natal women will go to for the sake of vanity, not correcting a birth defect.
If having a large girth/chest was unique exclusively to T.S women it would lend credence to the action to a degree, but it is not. Many natal women have large chests, many natal women have big feet, so such radical surgery is rooted purely in vanity it seems to me.
I am genuinely concerned with the lengths that some T.S. women will go to to appear more female/less male, as I have sad it deeply saddens me.
It is understandable that one profoundly needs to diminish one 's male appearance to have a reasonable chance of assimilation into the right gender post transition.
There is also this to consider, and this I think about all the time because I am willing to have FFS. But here is were clear thinking is crucial, I have found after having observed hundreds of other T.S. women, there is very little that is more freaky looking/scary looking than a lovely feminine face on a hulk of a male body with regards stature. All I am saying is that FFS is not the fix all for all T.S. women. Nor is it for all T.S. women.
I have many close friends that fall into this group, where no amount of surgery is going to make a buffalo look like a butterfly. This is tragic, this is horrifically painful, this stir great conflict for all concerned. I find myself borderline physically, but I cannot be sure because I cannot trust my own eyes and perception of me. I try my best to be completely upfront and true to me and my actual realities, not what I want to believe is the truth.
In closing I will comment briefly on the derailed subject matter, especially by admins.. I have myself been chastised many times for what was called derailing a subject or being what was called taking a serious subject to lighthearted here and on other sites, so it is this that provoked me to comment on the perceived infraction. It is like this, "do as I say, not as I do".
I have found that over the years my sense of humor has kept me breathing just a little bit longer, hence the lighthearted approach that I had adopted, also I have found that certain shared thoughts and comments have stirred feeling and thoughts within me that have been taken as derailing, though that was never my intention. So this is why I had the need to say something. I would have just remained in the shadows and not commented on the derailing if one of the other members had not said something about.
thank you
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #103083 is a reply to message #102813 ] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 04:59 |
| Anonymous |
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| Katie wrote on Thu, 03 June 2010 13:16 | | Anonymous wrote on Wed, 02 June 2010 12:51 | "Hijacked thread"
No, how could that be so, an administrator or two has jumped on the humor band wagon. You must have thought I was sharing a serious subject hoping for considerate insightful replies.
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And you've gotten them. Of course, if you want NO humor in ANY discussion I suggest you attend ...
No clue. Everywhere I go they laugh occasionally -- even in a court room. And if you want no humor in this thread then you've most certainly posted it in the wrong place. The motto, mantra and moral of this forum?
Show up.
Don't worry.
Bring your sense of humor.
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Katie...
The cruelty and vicious behavior that our fellow human beings levy upon us/each other is neither new, nor is it unique to the T.S. community. This very same vicious behavior rears up its ugly head here, and there, and every on a whim. Ignorance and cruelty are human traits, not social creations. People make choices, they choose to be mean or to be nice, they choose to be compassionate, or not, we choose to be nurturing and supportive, or not.
This is how I see it.
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #103094 is a reply to message #103083 ] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 07:19 |
Derrie
Messages: 21526
Registered: October 2007 |
Senior Member
BL3D
Chief Instigator
First Officer |
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Oh My!
Anon...thanks for starting this thread.....it's really good stuff.
First, got a question for you. The title says "Body Mutation"...did you mean to say "Body Mutilation" ??? I can correct that if you did. Let me know.
NOW~
| Quote: | radical surgery is rooted purely in vanity it seems to me.
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the "seems to me" is KEY to what you are talking about. I too have viewed actions of others as vain, shallow, materialistic...but after knowing the full story have found out I was wrong.....very wrong. The problem simply stems from my desire/need/habit of feeling like I need to analyze others actions and "file" them in my mind. I STILL do it a lot but not nearly as much as I used to. It seems the MORE I socialize and get to know people deep down..........I don't need to categorized them as "normal" or "crazy".....we are ALL a mix of both.....keeps us balanced. 
| Quote: | Katie...
The cruelty and vicious behavior that our fellow human beings levy upon us/each other is neither new, nor is it unique to the T.S. community. This very same vicious behavior rears up its ugly head here, and there, and every on a whim. Ignorance and cruelty are human traits, not social creations. People make choices, they choose to be mean or to be nice, they choose to be compassionate, or not, we choose to be nurturing and supportive, or not.
This is how I see it.
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Are you saying that derailing/hijacking threads is considered cruel and vicious behavior?? It is ignorant and cruel??
Hang with me here....I have a sincere, from the heart question for you. Do you feel that you lack a strong social network? Do you have a lot of friends, coworkers or family??
I truly want you to think about it....it seems that this issue with the FFS/Body Mutilating and such is a HUGE burden for you and you need to resolve it. Maybe we can come up with some answers or at least some food for thought.
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #103129 is a reply to message #103094 ] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 11:04 |
| Anonymous |
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| DJ wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 10:19 | Oh My!
Anon...thanks for starting this thread.....it's really good stuff.
First, got a question for you. The title says "Body Mutation"...did you mean to say "Body Mutilation" ??? I can correct that if you did. Let me know.
NOW~
| Quote: | radical surgery is rooted purely in vanity it seems to me.
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the "seems to me" is KEY to what you are talking about. I too have viewed actions of others as vain, shallow, materialistic...but after knowing the full story have found out I was wrong.....very wrong. The problem simply stems from my desire/need/habit of feeling like I need to analyze others actions and "file" them in my mind. I STILL do it a lot but not nearly as much as I used to. It seems the MORE I socialize and get to know people deep down..........I don't need to categorized them as "normal" or "crazy".....we are ALL a mix of both.....keeps us balanced. :d
| Quote: | Katie...
The cruelty and vicious behavior that our fellow human beings levy upon us/each other is neither new, nor is it unique to the T.S. community. This very same vicious behavior rears up its ugly head here, and there, and every on a whim. Ignorance and cruelty are human traits, not social creations. People make choices, they choose to be mean or to be nice, they choose to be compassionate, or not, we choose to be nurturing and supportive, or not.
This is how I see it.
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Are you saying that derailing/hijacking threads is considered cruel and vicious behavior?? It is ignorant and cruel??
Hang with me here....I have a sincere, from the heart question for you. Do you feel that you lack a strong social network? Do you have a lot of friends, coworkers or family??
I truly want you to think about it....it seems that this issue with the FFS/Body Mutilating and such is a HUGE burden for you and you need to resolve it. Maybe we can come up with some answers or at least some food for thought.
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DJ...
Don't be silly, of course not, the statement was about the atrocious behavior that some unload on people as a whole, and also to select demographics, which breaks down to prejudices.
I am blessed with genuine friends, I am currently blessed with caring and understanding coworkers, and sadly almost all of my extended family have died. My mother will join that group very soon.
"Social Network" In reference to a stable consistent transition social network I am lacking, but that is by my own design at this time.
My physical Self-image is not an issue for me at all, I am me, I have reconciled myself to that. It is more about what troubles me when I read and listen to the unhealthy choices and lengths that many of our sisters go to to achieve the Holy Grail of a so called successful physical transition.
A woman should not have a penis and testicles, hence the surgery to correct the birth defect. A woman's endocrine system should not be primarily testosterone fueled, again hence the surgery. A woman should have a vagina and breasts, again hence the need for the corrective surgery. A woman should not have prominent male bone structures on her face, again hence the corrective surgery, scalp and hair line surgeries, these are reasonable and needed. These are basic truths/realities, these are reasonable and understandable necessary surgeries.
But the surgeries beyond these to me seem to be about vanity, not correcting a grotesque birth defect. That is all I am saying. It appears that some T.S. woman revel in the surgeries and the accompanying attention. I believe this to be true despite the fact that the surgeries are insanely painful and grossly expensive. How many rites of passage does one woman need?
It is the over the top surgeries that I find to be mutilation, I find the necessary surgeries to correct the birth defect sane and completely understandable.
Does this help DJ?
Please keep in mind that this is how I feel, I am speaking only about my feelings and perceptions.
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #103131 is a reply to message #103129 ] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 11:42 |
Derrie
Messages: 21526
Registered: October 2007 |
Senior Member
BL3D
Chief Instigator
First Officer |
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Please keep in mind that this is how I feel, I am speaking only about my feelings and perceptions.
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Well of course it is!!!....and that is why we are having this conversation. You seem to be taking this all WAY TOO personally. Ya think?
For instance~
| Quote: | It is more about what troubles me when I read and listen to the unhealthy choices and lengths that many of our sisters go to to achieve the Holy Grail of a so called successful physical transition.
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Why?? Because they don't see things the way YOU see them. I mean, that's it, pure and simple. It don't seem to bother them...but it brings you great despair and agony.
I KNOW what you are talking about...I don't have the SAME issue that you do...but I DO have my own personal issues with some folks. I won't even start to get into those because I've been working really hard at letting go of that stuff. It can kill your soul.
My older brother....God Bless him....the only thing that seems to hold him together is having something to battle against. In the past 2 decades (or a little more) I've seen his psyche go thru a metamorphosis...I would love to be able to show him a video of himself compared to a video of today. He seems to be against ANYTHING or EVERYONE that don't see EXACTLY eye to eye with him. Give him any subject....he has an opinion....politics, religion, sexual orientation, automobiles, child rearing.
It's truly NOT the issues that are the "issues"
That make any sense at all?? I don't know WHAT the problem is.
I read a quote recently that I truly love....."We were all given a life to live. If you insist that you can tell me how to live mine, then you get TWO....and I get NONE."
| Quote: | How many rites of passage does one woman need?
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as many as it takes to make the shame, guilt and pain of an unbearable life go away.....and sometimes that debt simply can't be paid off.
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It is the over the top surgeries that I find to be mutilation,
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So, it SHOULD read "mutilation" and NOT "mutation" Got it!
Thanks for replying...I understand how you feel........but I feel if you have the money...and you are a glutton for pain....and you NEED to do it to be able to accept yourself.....it's your life. I've got too much stuff on my plate to stress over it.
At this very moment I am about to bite my tongue off trying to hold back a rant on the needless, RIDICULOUS, stupid stuff (IMO) that people do.  I just feel so much better when I let it go...........well....kinda'
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #103182 is a reply to message #102133 ] |
Sun, 06 June 2010 06:28 |
Isolde 
Messages: 1406
Registered: April 2010
Location: Canada |
Senior Member
Sacrificial Virgin To The Canadian Pharma Hellmouth
Standard Petulant and Pedantic Personage |
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I don't really have a problem with cosmetic surgery. In fact I think it's great. It fixes a lot of problems. Is it a cure all? No, of course not, but it's something that can alleviate suffering for many people.
Referring to it as 'body mutilation' is a bit of a logical fallacy, in my opinion. It's putting a drastic negative spin on something which isn't positive or negative.
Yes, I'm sure we can all pull out a handful of examples of people who have too much plastic surgery, or have had too many operations. But, like with everything else in life, those people are addicted to it. They are the extreme cases. They are the equivalents of coffee addicts who's hearts stop from too much caffeine, the one transsexual who actually is a sex offender, the drunken frat boys who end up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning every weekend.
You have to take into account the millions (literally millions) of people in the world who have had plastic surgery because they weren't happy with their bodies, but who do not look like freaks, and who are genuinely happier since those procedures.
What I do have a problem with is the oppression that women, trans inclusive, feel, by society, to look a certain way. I think that we as people would be more likely to be happy with the way we looked if it weren't for society's judgmental attitude. It reminds me of when I went to India, we'd always see ads for 'Fair and Beautiful' (and 'Fair and Handsome' for men), which was a skin whitener so that a person could have paler, fairer skin. It was just a product, so it was completely optional, but of course it wasn't really optional. It is forced upon the population and ingrained in them that they have to be fair. In fact, darker skinned people in India have a significantly harder time finding jobs or mates.
I firmly believe that it's this kind of oppression against women (again, trans inclusive) that forces us to try and look a certain way. If this wasn't there, I'm sure you'd see a lot less negative press about cosmetic surgery. And it would be seen as what it is, a possible treatment to help people feel more comfortable with themselves.
And, unfortunately, there are transpeople out there that do in fact need plastic surgery to pass. Some people are just built with extremely masculine (or feminine) features that don't match their true gender. And it's completely reasonable for them to change those features if it means a chance at not being ridiculed, mocked, abused, raped, beaten, etc. for the rest of their lives.
-Isolde
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #105704 is a reply to message #105532 ] |
Tue, 22 June 2010 16:33 |
| Anonymous |
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There is a vast difference between a heartfelt observation and a critique.
It just saddens me the unhealthy lengths that some people will go to. For a T.S. women to seek corrective surgery to repair the damage done by this birth defect is one thing, but what is reasonable and what is over the top.
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| Re: Grasping hold of the plain truth [message #105825 is a reply to message #102133 ] |
Wed, 23 June 2010 13:45 |
Katie
Messages: 14644
Registered: October 2007
Location: La La Land |
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Administrator
Bitch Queen of Palolo
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I have a friend who is totally blind and has been so since shortly after her birth. She thinks that medical procedures designed to give blind people sight are unreasonable.
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We said she was insane....but NO...that was when she continued to wear stilettos until she was 80!!! 
Yummy!
