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UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109327] Sat, 31 July 2010 07:12 Go to next message
ZoeB  is currently offline ZoeB  AUSTRALIA
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Quote:
A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a gender recognition certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress.


http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2010/en/ukpgaen_20100015_en. pdf

Apparently female "transsexual people" with GRCs are not women by UK law now. They are however, to be treated almost as if they were for some purposes. Not others. These privileges (not rights) can be withdrawn by parliamentary act at any time, as they have been here.

So much for the UK Equality Act of 2010. It eviscerates the UK Gender Recognition Act.
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109329 is a reply to message #109327 ] Sat, 31 July 2010 08:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CarolynnL  is currently offline CarolynnL  UNITED STATES
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And you are surprised how? Don't forget, women of transsexual medical history are the worlds new nigger in all countries, no matter what laws are passed. We scare the bejesus out of so called normal people, especially men, and occasionally stand in the way of their greed and prejudices and so laws must be cast aside when we become inconvenient. As Al Capone supposedly said, "Laws are made to be broken or ignored!" Laws might keep some people from beating you to death, but they don't have to accept you. Tolerance is not the same as acceptance.

JIMHO
Carolynn
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109354 is a reply to message #109327 ] Sun, 01 August 2010 02:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Heli H  is currently offline Heli H  FINLAND
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Hi Zoe

It seems that the frost has returned in several countries including Finland. I suggest that you should write a complaint to European commission about the dismissal of protection for transsexual individuals. In that case the law is against EU law, the Charter of Fundamental Rights and it has been binding since the Lisbon treaty.

In Finland we got a renewed census act 661/2009 and since 1st of March every transsexual woman or man who wants to have gender recognition and falls in the prerequisites (not married, sterile, adult, citizen or resident and diagnosed psychiatric diagnosis of ICD-10 F64.0) will get an entry about his/her transsexual gender recoignition in the Census and that can be disclosed to third parties if they ask it for the "protection of rights".

I lodged a complaint in the commission.

Here's some links you may enjoy

http://ec.europa.eu/community_law/your_rights/your_rights_fo rms_en.htm

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf

In your case I would also invoke the Council Directive 2000/78/EC of 27 November 2000 establishing a general framework for equal treatment in employment and occupation

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celex api!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=EN&numdoc=32000L0078&mod el=guichett
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109384 is a reply to message #109354 ] Sun, 01 August 2010 23:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hilary  is currently offline Hilary  UNITED STATES
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Quote:


A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.





Who knows who is transsexual ... once one has a GRC there is no need to tell anybody else.
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109388 is a reply to message #109384 ] Mon, 02 August 2010 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZoeB  is currently offline ZoeB  AUSTRALIA
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Hilary wrote on Mon, 02 August 2010 16:31
Who knows who is transsexual ... once one has a GRC there is no need to tell anybody else.

By the Equality Act, they're allowed to ask. Sad GRC or no GRC.

Hugs from the Zoe of Oz
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109411 is a reply to message #109388 ] Mon, 02 August 2010 07:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hilary  is currently offline Hilary  UNITED STATES
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ZoeB wrote on Mon, 02 August 2010 03:05
Hilary wrote on Mon, 02 August 2010 16:31
Who knows who is transsexual ... once one has a GRC there is no need to tell anybody else.

By the Equality Act, they're allowed to ask. Sad GRC or no GRC.

Hugs from the Zoe of Oz




They? Who is THEY?

I don't see where THEY are permitted to ask.
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109444 is a reply to message #109327 ] Mon, 02 August 2010 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Capucine  is currently offline Capucine  UNITED STATES
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As far as I remember, the GRC does not require one to be totally integrated as a man or woman (depending on the target gender) so the exclusion is only for those not visibly integrated. As Hilary says, why should 'they' ask, if there are no visible signs?

Capucine
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109447 is a reply to message #109327 ] Mon, 02 August 2010 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Heli H  is currently offline Heli H  FINLAND
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This is applicable law both in Finland and in the UK since the Treaty of Lisbon. It is the Charter of Fundamental rights

Article 3
Right to the integrity of the person
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his or her physical and mental integrity.
2. In the fields of medicine and biology, the following must be respected in particular:
- the free and informed consent of the person concerned, according to the procedures laid down by law,
- the prohibition of eugenic practices, in particular those aiming at the selection of persons,
- the prohibition on making the human body and its parts as such a source of financial gain,
- the prohibition of the reproductive cloning of human beings.

...

Article 8
Protection of personal data
1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her.
2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the
person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access to
data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified.
3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority.


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf



Also the EU directive has to be implemented both in Finland and the UK. (A directive is not applicable law but the member state has to implement it in its national legislation, otherwise the European Commission will take the case to ECJ)

(3) The Court of Justice has held that the scope of the principle of equal treatment for men and women cannot be confined to the prohibition of discrimination based on the fact that a person is of one or other sex. In view of its purpose and the nature of the rights which it seeks to safeguard, it also applies to discrimination arising from the gender reassignment of a person.

Article 2

Definitions

1. For the purposes of this Directive, the following definitions shall apply:

(a) "direct discrimination": where one person is treated less favourably on grounds of sex than another is, has been or would be treated in a comparable situation;

(b) "indirect discrimination": where an apparently neutral provision, criterion or practice would put persons of one sex at a particular disadvantage compared with persons of the other sex, unless that provision, criterion or practice is objectively justified by a legitimate aim, and the means of achieving that aim are appropriate and necessary;

(c) "harassment": where unwanted conduct related to the sex of a person occurs with the purpose or effect of violating the dignity of a person, and of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment;


(d) "sexual harassment": where any form of unwanted verbal, non-verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature occurs, with the purpose or effect of violating the dignity of a person, in particular when creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment;

(e) "pay": the ordinary basic or minimum wage or salary and any other consideration, whether in cash or in kind, which the worker receives directly or indirectly, in respect of his/her employment from his/her employer;

(f) "occupational social security schemes": schemes not governed by Council Directive 79/7/EEC of 19 December 1978 on the progressive implementation of the principle of equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security [16] whose purpose is to provide workers, whether employees or self-employed, in an undertaking or group of undertakings, area of economic activity, occupational sector or group of sectors with benefits intended to supplement the benefits provided by statutory social security schemes or to replace them, whether membership of such schemes is compulsory or optional.

2. For the purposes of this Directive, discrimination includes:

(a) harassment and sexual harassment, as well as any less favourable treatment based on a person's rejection of or submission to such conduct;

(b) instruction to discriminate against persons on grounds of sex;


(c) any less favourable treatment of a woman related to pregnancy or maternity leave within the meaning of Directive 92/85/EEC.

...

Section 2

Burden of proof

Article 19

Burden of proof

1. Member States shall take such measures as are necessary, in accordance with their national judicial systems, to ensure that, when persons who consider themselves wronged because the principle of equal treatment has not been applied to them establish, before a court or other competent authority, facts from which it may be presumed that there has been direct or indirect discrimination, it shall be for the respondent to prove that there has been no breach of the principle of equal treatment.

2. Paragraph 1 shall not prevent Member States from introducing rules of evidence which are more favourable to plaintiffs.

3. Member States need not apply paragraph 1 to proceedings in which it is for the court or competent body to investigate the facts of the case.

4. Paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 shall also apply to:

(a) the situations covered by Article 141 of the Treaty and, insofar as discrimination based on sex is concerned, by Directives 92/85/EEC and 96/34/EC;

(b) any civil or administrative procedure concerning the public or private sector which provides for means of redress under national law pursuant to the measures referred to in (a) with the exception of out-of-court procedures of a voluntary nature or provided for in national law.

5. This Article shall not apply to criminal procedures, unless otherwise provided by the Member States.

...

CHAPTER 3

General horizontal provisions

Article 23

Compliance

Member States shall take all necessary measures to ensure that:

(a) any laws, regulations and administrative provisions contrary to the principle of equal treatment are abolished;

(b) provisions contrary to the principle of equal treatment in individual or collective contracts or agreements, internal rules of undertakings or rules governing the independent occupations and professions and workers' and employers' organisations or any other arrangements shall be, or may be, declared null and void or are amended;

(c) occupational social security schemes containing such provisions may not be approved or extended by administrative measures.

Article 24

Victimisation

Member States shall introduce into their national legal systems such measures as are necessary to protect employees, including those who are employees' representatives provided for by national laws and/or practices, against dismissal or other adverse treatment by the employer as a reaction to a complaint within the undertaking or to any legal proceedings aimed at enforcing compliance with the principle of equal treatment.

Article 25

Penalties

Member States shall lay down the rules on penalties applicable to infringements of the national provisions adopted pursuant to this Directive, and shall take all measures necessary to ensure that they are applied. The penalties, which may comprise the payment of compensation to the victim, must be effective, proportionate and dissuasive. The Member States shall notify those provisions to the Commission by 5 October 2005 at the latest and shall notify it without delay of any subsequent amendment affecting them.

Article 26

Prevention of discrimination

Member States shall encourage, in accordance with national law, collective agreements or practice, employers and those responsible for access to vocational training to take effective measures to prevent all forms of discrimination on grounds of sex, in particular harassment and sexual harassment in the workplace, in access to employment, vocational training and promotion.

Article 27

Minimum requirements

1. Member States may introduce or maintain provisions which are more favourable to the protection of the principle of equal treatment than those laid down in this Directive.

2. Implementation of this Directive shall under no circumstances be sufficient grounds for a reduction in the level of protection of workers in the areas to which it applies, without prejudice to the Member States' right to respond to changes in the situation by introducing laws, regulations and administrative provisions which differ from those in force on the notification of this Directive, provided that the provisions of this Directive are complied with.

Article 28

Relationship to Community and national provisions

1. This Directive shall be without prejudice to provisions concerning the protection of women, particularly as regards pregnancy and maternity.

2. This Directive shall be without prejudice to the provisions of Directive 96/34/EC and Directive 92/85/EEC.

Article 29

Gender mainstreaming

Member States shall actively take into account the objective of equality between men and women when formulating and implementing laws, regulations, administrative provisions, policies and activities in the areas referred to in this Directive.

Article 30

Dissemination of information

Member States shall ensure that measures taken pursuant to this Directive, together with the provisions already in force, are brought to the attention of all the persons concerned by all suitable means and, where appropriate, at the workplace.


http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2 006:204:0023:01:EN:HTML

In Helsinki Pride I had a discussion with one obviously crossdresser. In a smalltalk he told me "female hormones make you think more girly". I said "do not underestimate the effect of female hormones, they made me a lawyer"

http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/shrek-forever-after-fiona-275x430.jpg

[Updated on: Mon, 02 August 2010 17:46]

Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109450 is a reply to message #109447 ] Mon, 02 August 2010 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hilary  is currently offline Hilary  UNITED STATES
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Thanks Capucine. From what I remember the wording on the GRC is "for all purposes of the Gender acquired"

All purposes.
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109451 is a reply to message #109447 ] Mon, 02 August 2010 18:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hilary  is currently offline Hilary  UNITED STATES
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Thanks Capucine. From what I remember the wording on the GRC is "for all purposes of the Gender acquired"

All purposes.
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109461 is a reply to message #109451 ] Mon, 02 August 2010 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZoeB  is currently offline ZoeB  AUSTRALIA
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Hilary wrote on Tue, 03 August 2010 11:41
Thanks Capucine. From what I remember the wording on the GRC is "for all purposes of the Gender acquired"

All purposes.


Except that by the Equality Act 2010, it's not. That's the problem.

Quote:
Equality Act 2010 (c. 15)
Schedule 3 -- Services and public functions: exceptions
Part 7 -- Separate and single services

Gender reassignment
28
(1) A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2) The matters are--
(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;
(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;
(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

Equality Act 2010 (c. 15)
Schedule 9 -- Work: exceptions
Part 1 -- Occupational requirements
(3) The references in sub-paragraph (1) to a requirement to have a protected characteristic are to be read--
(a) in the case of gender reassignment, as references to a requirement not to be a transsexual person (and section 7(3) is accordingly to be ignored);


That's right: being not transsexual is effectively a "protected characteristic" for the purposes of this section of the act.

e.g.
Quote:
749. This paragraph replaces a similar provision in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.

Example
A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

Thus the organisers are allowed to enquire of rape victims if they are transsexual, and if so, to exclude them.

http://endablog.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/goodandbad.jpg
Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109462 is a reply to message #109461 ] Mon, 02 August 2010 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Karen_A  UNITED STATES
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Debatable!
ZoeB wrote on Mon, 02 August 2010 23:03

index.php/fa/4216/0/



Dirt... An UNrepentant hater.

[Updated on: Mon, 02 August 2010 20:11]

Re: UK (anti?) Discrimination Law [message #109464 is a reply to message #109461 ] Mon, 02 August 2010 21:09 Go to previous message
Heli H  is currently offline Heli H  FINLAND
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ZoeB wrote on Tue, 03 August 2010 06:03
Hilary wrote on Tue, 03 August 2010 11:41
Thanks Capucine. From what I remember the wording on the GRC is "for all purposes of the Gender acquired"

All purposes.


Except that by the Equality Act 2010, it's not. That's the problem.

Quote:
Equality Act 2010 (c. 15)
Schedule 3 -- Services and public functions: exceptions
Part 7 -- Separate and single services

Gender reassignment
28
(1) A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2) The matters are--
(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;
(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;
(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

Equality Act 2010 (c. 15)
Schedule 9 -- Work: exceptions
Part 1 -- Occupational requirements
(3) The references in sub-paragraph (1) to a requirement to have a protected characteristic are to be read--
(a) in the case of gender reassignment, as references to a requirement not to be a transsexual person (and section 7(3) is accordingly to be ignored);


That's right: being not transsexual is effectively a "protected characteristic" for the purposes of this section of the act.

e.g.
Quote:
749. This paragraph replaces a similar provision in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.

Example
A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

Thus the organisers are allowed to enquire of rape victims if they are transsexual, and if so, to exclude them.

http://endablog.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/goodandbad.jpg



That is against EU legislation and the UK is under its jurisdiction. I suggest that you will lodge in a complaint about that exclusion that is against the explicit judgement of the European Cuort of Justice. It seems that the UK has not implemented Directive 2006/54/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 5 July 2006 on the implementation of the principle of equal opportunities and equal treatment of men and women in matters of employment and occupation (recast)

Official Journal L 204 , 26/07/2006 P. 0023 - 0036

The UK is a member state of the EU. If she does not want to comply with the rules we'll throw her out. We care fucking little about her common law.

because

(3) The Court of Justice has held that the scope of the principle of equal treatment for men and women cannot be confined to the prohibition of discrimination based on the fact that a person is of one or other sex. In view of its purpose and the nature of the rights which it seeks to safeguard, it also applies to discrimination arising from the gender reassignment of a person.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2 006:204:0023:01:EN:HTML
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