Home » Public » Trans Political Issues » No "pregnant man" for Western Australia?
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #111705 is a reply to message #111688 ] |
Thu, 02 September 2010 09:10   |
 CarolynnL 
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Registered: October 2007
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This may be totally reactionary, but I believe the gender recognition acts of the countries with them (Australia, England, Belgium, Finland, others) holding the requirement that the applicant be sterile is a punitive thing on the part of the bigots that write the bills. That thought, subconsicious or not, is rather eugenic in origin: If you want to change gender, then BY GOD (emphasis deliberate) you will be sterile and not pass your perversion to succeeding generations. Yeah, that understanding they may have just doesn't work as there are many potential ways one can become TS that have nothing to do with heritable genetics. As Heli has noted in numerous instances, to be declared female one not only has to be sterilized, but it is required the applicant be divorced from her wife, as it is illegal for people of the same gender to be married. So, it's just I get a sense of the punitive from the laws, and for anyone preop, the laws do make it harder for us to live as ourselves..
Personally, I prefer to be sterilized, since a surgeon is not causing anything that nature and hrt hasn't already taken care of. I would have loved it if I could have gone to court with my evidence of intersexuality and gotten my gender changed on all my docs. I did investigate it, but there is no provision in state law to allow it.
And I don't like having testicles and will gladly dispense with the largely non-functional piece of skin that some call a penis. However, I can see a few instances where retaining the ability to have a kid could be important to a marriage. I know a young M2F TS that saved sperm before hrt at the request of her accepting partner, as she wanted at least one or more children who would be biologically theirs. Rare, I think, but it does happen.
So, I guess that my attitude is that being able to get documents changed should not be contingent on getting sterilized. That way, we could have our documents changed before surgery as I think is the case in California, which would make some aspects of our pre-op lives easier.
Carolynn
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #111863 is a reply to message #111749 ] |
Fri, 03 September 2010 00:01 |
ZoeB 
Messages: 1920
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| Hilary wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 05:14 | Sorry Carolynn, but unless the law has changed recently, the UK does NOT require sterilization for Gender Recognition (although HRT practically brings it on).
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In practice in the UK - unless you can show a really good reason not to have had SRS (e.g. medical issues..) they won't grant a GRC. That's made clear in the latest guidelines. SRS however is not sufficient by itself.
Sterilisation is not formally required in the UK though. A formal diagnosis of a mental illness, and compulsory divorce/annulment of any marriage, is.
Sterilisation and divorce are both required for recognition in Australia, though by a quirk of the law, neither are required if you're an Australian Citizen born overseas. That's because recognition is a state or territory issue, not a Federal one, and those born overseas cannot be recognised as either gender under state or territory law. Marriage however is a Federal issue.
Hugs from the Zoe of Oz
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112114 is a reply to message #112013 ] |
Sun, 05 September 2010 08:01 |
ZoeB
Messages: 1920
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Location: Canberra, Australia |
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| Hilary wrote on Sun, 05 September 2010 01:05 | | ZoeB wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 03:01 | A formal diagnosis of a mental illness, and compulsory divorce/annulment of any marriage, is.
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Formal diagnosis of a mental illness?
Totally incorrect Zoe.
| http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/transsexualism-causes.html |
n.b.The UK government recognises that transsexualism is not a mental illness. See Lord Chancellor's Department - government policy concerning transsexual people. http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/transsex/policy.htm
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Notwithstanding the Lord Chancellor's remarks (ones I completely agree with BTW), now that the last surviving medical practitioner has been removed from the Gender Recognition Panel (they're now all lawyers), a formal diagnosis of Transsexuality according to the ICD-10 is required. This corresponds to the diagnosis of "Gender Dysphoria" under the Gender Recognition Act, a term the lawyers on the panel found to be inexact and undefined. So they defined it as best they could, taking expert advice from the Travistock centre and Charring Cross, and referring to the WHO manual on the subject.
Hence the advice I've had from the UK that those who are Intersexed cannot be covered by the GRA.
The Gender Recognition Panel was supposed to be composed of both lawyers and medics. But the last medic was ousted over a year ago, due to disagreements with the way things were going.
Sorry, but that's the way it is now. Other changes include the preclusion of any non-UK-based medic from being a qualified specialist under the act. All such specialists must now not just be registered by the BMC, but licensed to practice in the UK. Only those resident in the UK can meet that last requirement.
And remember the changes under the "Equality Act 2010". | Quote: | Schedule 9: Work: exceptions
Part 1: Occupational requirements
A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a gender recognition certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress.
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Hilary, things change. Not always for the better.
Hugs from the Zoe of Oz
[Updated on: Sun, 05 September 2010 08:19]
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112118 is a reply to message #112116 ] |
Sun, 05 September 2010 08:24 |
ZoeB
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| Hilary wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 01:18 | I repeat, since 2002, the government has recognized GID is not a mental illness, a view that is current.
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I accept that. However...
The Gender Recognition Panel appears to differ, and also now refuses to issue GRCs to those who are not post-operative, unless they show good cause not to be. I believe that that has been the case for several years. Hills, did you get a GRC before surgery, or were they inordinately interested in your surgical status?
Hugs again from the Zoe of Oz
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112119 is a reply to message #112118 ] |
Sun, 05 September 2010 08:45 |
Hilary 
Messages: 5534
Registered: October 2007
Location: 2, Camberwick Green, Trum... |
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Again, Zoe, unless the law has changed recently, in the UK, it is not necessary to have surgery to obtain a GRC, if their are reasons why surgery might be precluded (age, risk of death) etc.
I now have reason to believe the GRP is even more liberal in dispensing GRC, I know of some who have obtained their GRC after (just) two years of RLT, and before surgery. I believe there is a member here who is non-op with a GRC.
This is a public forum, so I am not going to discuss my or any body else medical history, but normally one presents evidence of surgery and HRT.
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112136 is a reply to message #111688 ] |
Sun, 05 September 2010 10:44 |
Heli H 
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Registered: October 2007
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btw which ICD-10 code do they use in the UK?
I guess it is this:
Page 11 of the bluebook:
"Block F60-F69 contains a number of new disorders of adult behaviour such as pathological gambling, fire-setting, and stealing, as well as the more traditional disorders of personality. Disorders of sexual preference are clearly differentiated from disorders of gender identity, and homosexuality in itself is no longer included as a category."
"Problems of terminology
Disorder
The term "disorder" is used throughout the classification, so as to avoid even greater problems inherent in the use of terms such as "disease" and "illness". "Disorder" is not an exact term, but it is used here to imply the existence of a clinically recognizable set of symptoms or behaviour associated in most cases with distress and with interference with personal functions. Social deviance or conflict alone, without personal dysfunction, should not be included in mental disorder as defined here."
Pagec 36-37
"F60-F69
Disorders of adult personality and behaviour
F60 Specific personality disorders
F60.0 Paranoid personality disorder
F60.1 Schizoid personality disorder
F60.2 Dissocial personality disorder
F60.3 Emotionally unstable personality disorder
.30 Impulsive type
.31 Borderline type
F60.4 Histrionic personality disorder
F60.5 Anankastic personality disorder
F60.6 Anxious [avoidant] personality disorder
F60.7 Dependent personality disorder
F60.8 Other specific personality disorders
F60.9 Personality disorder, unspecified
F61 Mixed and other personality disorders
F61.0 Mixed personality disorders
F61.1 Troublesome personality changes
F62 Enduring personality changes, not attributable to brain damage and disease
F62.0 Enduring personality change after catastrophic experience
F62.1 Enduring personality change after psychiatric illness
F62.8 Other enduring personality changes
F62.9 Enduring personality change, unspecified
F63 Habit and impulse disorders
F63.0 Pathological gambling
F63.1 Pathological fire-setting [pyromania]
F63.2 Pathological stealing [kleptomania]
F63.3 Trichotillomania
F63.8 Other habit and impulse disorders
F63.9 Habit and impulse disorder, unspecified
F64 Gender identity disorders
F64.0 Transsexualism
F64.1 Dual-role transvestism
F64.2 Gender identity disorder of childhood
F64.8 Other gender identity disorders
F64.9 Gender identity disorder, unspecified
F65 Disorders of sexual preference
F65.0 Fetishism
F65.1 Fetishistic transvestism
F65.2 Exhibitionism
F65.3 Voyeurism
F65.4 Paedophilia
F65.5 Sadomasochism
F65.6 Multiple disorders of sexual preference
F65.8 Other disorders of sexual preference
F65.9 Disorder of sexual preference, unspecified
F66 Psychological and behavioural disorders associated with sexual development and orientation
F66.0 Sexual maturation disorder
F66.1 Egodystonic sexual orientation
F66.2 Sexual relationship disorder
F66.8 Other psychosexual development disorders
F66.9 Psychosexual development disorder, unspecified
A fifth character may be used to indicate association with:
.x0 Heterosexuality
.x1 Homosexuality
.x2 Bisexuality
.x8 Other, including prepubertal
F68 Other disorders of adult personality and behaviour
F68.0 Elaboration of physical symptoms for psychological reasons
F68.1 Intentional production or feigning of symptoms or disabilities, either physical or psychological [factitious disorder]
F68.8 Other specified disorders of adult personality and behaviour
F69 Unspecified disorder of adult personality and behaviour"
From the pages 168-170
"F64 Gender identity disorders
F64.0 Transsexualism
A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex and a wish to have hormonal treatment and surgery to make one's body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex.
Diagnostic guidelines
For this diagnosis to be made, the transsexual identity should have been present persistently for at least 2 years, and must not be a symptom of another mental disorder, such as schizophrenia, or associated with any intersex, genetic, or sex chromosome abnormality.
F64.1 Dual-role transvestism
The wearing of clothes of the opposite sex for part of the individual's existence in order to enjoy the temporary experience of membership of the opposite sex, but without any desire for a more permanent sex change or associated surgical reassignment. No sexual excitement accompanies the cross-dressing, which distinguishes the disorder from fetishistic transvestism (F65.1).
Includes:gender identify disorder of adolescence or adulthood,
nontranssexual type
Excludes:fetishistic transvestism (F65.1)
F64.2 Gender identity disorder of childhood
Disorders, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and/or activities of the opposite sex and/or repudiation of the patient's own sex.
These disorders are thought to be relatively uncommon and should not be confused with the much more frequent nonconformity wit stereotypic sexrole behaviour. The diagnosis of gender identify disorder in childhood requires a profound disturbance of the normal sense of maleness or femaleness; mere 'tomboyishness' in girls or 'girlish' behaviour in boys is not sufficient. The diagnosis cannot be made when the individual has reached puberty.
Because gender identity disorder of childhood has many features in common with the other identity disorders in this section, it has been classified in F64.- rather than in F90 - F98.
Diagnostic guidelines
The essential diagnostic feature is the child's pervasive and persistent desire to be (or insistence that he or she is of) the opposite sex to that assigned, together with an intense rejection of the behaviour, attributes, and/or attire of the assigned sex. Typically, this is first manifest during the preschool years; for the diagnosis to be made, the disorder must have been apparent before puberty. In both sexes, there may be repudiation of the
anatomical structures of their own sex, but this is an uncommon, probably rare, manifestation. Characteristically, children with a gender identity disorder deny being disturbed by it, although they may be distressed by the conflict with the expectations of their family or peers and by the teasing and/or rejection to which they may be subjected.
More is known about these disorders in boys than in girls. Typically, from the preschool years onwards, boys are preoccupied with types of play and other activities stereotypically associated with females, and there may often be a preference for dressing in girls' or women's clothes. However, such cross-dressing does not cause sexual excitement (unlike fetishistic transvestism in adults (F65.1)). They may have a very strong desire to participate in the games and pastimes of girls, female dolls are often their favourite toys, and girls are regularly their preferred playmates. Social ostracism tends to arise during the early years of schooling and is often at a peak in middle childhood, with humiliating teasing by other boys. Grossly feminine behaviour may lessen during early adolescence but follow-up studies indicate that between one-third and two-thirds of boys with gender identity disorder of childhood show a homosexual orientation during and after adolescence. However, very few exhibit transsexualism in adult life(although most adults with transsexualism report having had a gender identity problem in childhood).
In clinic samples, gender identity disorders are less frequent in girls than in boys, but it is not known whether this sex ratio applies in the general population. In girls, as in boys, there is usually an early manifestation of a preoccupation with behaviour stereotypically associated with the opposite sex. Typically, girls with these disorders have male companions and show an avid interest in sports and rough-and-tumble play; they lack interest in dolls and in taking female roles in make-believe games such as "mothers and fathers" or playing "house". Girls with a gender identity disorder tend not to experience the same degree of social ostracism as boys, although they may suffer from teasing in later childhood or adolescence. Most give up an exaggerated insistence on male activities and attire as they approach adolescence, but some retain a male identification and go on to show a homosexual orientation.
Rarely, a gender identity disorder may be associated with a persistent repudiation of the anatomic structures of the assigned sex. In girls, this may be manifest by repeated assertions that they have, or will grow, a penis, by rejection of urination in the sitting position, or by the assertion that they do not want to grow breasts or to menstruate. In boys, it may be shown by repeated assertions that they will grow up physically to become a
woman, that penis and testes are disgusting or will disappear, and/or that it would be better not to have a penis or testes.
Excludes:
egodystonic sexual orientation (F66.1)
sexual maturation disorder (F66.0)
F64.8 Other gender identity disorders
F64.9 Gender identity disorder, unspecified
Includes:gender-role disorder NOS"
source: http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/bluebook.pdf
for the whole ICD-10: http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/
[Updated on: Sun, 05 September 2010 10:45]
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112146 is a reply to message #112143 ] |
Sun, 05 September 2010 13:02 |
Heli H
Messages: 2234
Registered: October 2007
Location: Siberian porch |
Senior Member |
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| Hilary wrote on Sun, 05 September 2010 21:56 | Heli, I believe it has its own version, based, loosely, on ICD-10.
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I think that is not possible. If you refer transsexuality with the ICD-10 code F64.0 as a doctor, you must also obey the diagnostic criteria for that particular code. Besides the series F indicates that it is a psychiatric code, though not an illness but a disorder.
Edit:
PS. In Finland The Ministry of Social Affairs and Health has given its administrative order that ICD-10 had to be applied from 1 January 1996
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/viranomaiset/normi/550001/4932
The Ministry of Social Affairs and Health has also given a decree (1053/2002) on the basis of the law on the gender recognition of transsexual individuals (563/2002) that came into force on 1 January 2003
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/alkup/2002/20021053
In the law 563/2002 there are no references to ICD-10 F64.0, but there is a requirement of medical evidence
"1 §
Confirmation requirements:
A person is to be confirmed to belong to a gender opposite to what he or she has been marked in the census mentioned in the Census Act (507/1993) in case he or she:
1) provides a medical statement of permanently belonging to the opposite sex and that he or she lives in the gender accordingly and the fact that he or she is either sterilized or sterile for some other reason;
2) is of legal age;
3) is not married neither in registered partnership; and
4) is a Finnish citizen or has permanent residence in Finland."
The Ministry of Social Affairs and Health has given its decree based on Section 6 of the law 563/2002
"6 §
Authorization
The medical statement in 1 § and the implementation of medical research and care aimed at sex change will be more precisely stipulated in the Statute given by the Ministry of Social Affairs and Health. The Ministry of Social Affairs and Health can also give more precise guidelines."
source: http://www.pfc.org.uk/files/Finland_2002.pdf
In the decree of the Ministry of Social affairs and Health 1053/2002 there is an explicit wording in Section 3 that it is a psychiatric specialist who is in charge for the investigation of transsexual individuals.
"3 §
Transseksuaalisuuden tutkimukseen ja hoitoon perehtynyt moniammatillinen työryhmä
Henkilön transseksuaalisuuden tutkimusta, hoitoa ja seurantaa varten Helsingin yliopistollisessa keskussairaalassa ja Tampereen yliopistollisessa sairaalassa on transseksuaalisuuden tutkimukseen ja hoitoon perehtynyt moniammatillinen työryhmä.
Työryhmän kokoonpanon tulee olla sellainen, että se pystyy huolehtimaan asianmukaisesti transseksuaalisuuden diagnosoinnista, hoidosta ja seurannasta. Työryhmän toiminnasta vastaa psykiatrian erikoislääkäri. Työryhmän käytettävissä tulee olla endokrinologiaan perehtyneitä gynekologian ja sisätautien erikoislääkäreitä. Helsingin yliopistollisen keskussairaalan työryhmän käytettävissä tulee lisäksi olla sukuelinkirurgiaan perehtynyt plastiikkakirurgian erikoislääkäri."
and further in Section 5
"5 §
Tutkimusten ja hoidon järjestäminen
Edellä 3 §:ssä tarkoitetun työryhmän psykiatrian erikoislääkäri ohjaa potilaan samassa sairaalassa toimivalle endokrinologiaan perehtyneelle gynekologian tai sisätautien erikoislääkärille mahdollisen hormonihoidon arviointia ja aloitusta varten, kun riittävällä psykiatrisella tutkimuksella on todettu hormonihoidon edellytysten täyttyvän.
Kaikkiin sukupuolen vahvistamiseksi suoritettaviin sukuelinkirurgisiin hoitoihin lähettäminen steriloiminen mukaan lukien edellyttää henkilökohtaiseen tutkimukseen perustuvaa kirjallista suositusta, jonka antaa 3 §:ssä tarkoitetun työryhmän psykiatrian erikoislääkäri. Suositukseen on liitettävä puoltava lausunto toisen 3 §:ssä tarkoitetun työryhmän psykiatrian erikoislääkäriltä."
Käännös (suomi > englanti)
"3 §
Transsexuality research and treatment by an experienced multi-professional team
Trans person's transsexuality research, treatment and monitoring in the Helsinki University Central Hospital and Tampere University Hospital are organized in transsexuality research units with a multi-professional team.
Composition of the Task Force shall be such that it is able to diagnose proper transsexuality, and arrange treatment and follow-up. The working group is operated by the psychiatry specialist . The working group will be available in endocrinology and internal medicine, gynecology familiar with medical specialists. In Helsinki University Central Hospital Task Force there will also be available a specialist familiar with sex change plastic surgery. "
and in Section 5
"5 §
Studies and the organization of care
Above 3 § in working group referred to , a psychiatry specialist refers the patient, in the same hospital operating, to an endocrinology experienced gynecologist or internal medicine specialist for a possible hormone therapy assessment and initiation of the an adequate psychiatric examination has found hormone replacement requirements are met.
All genital surgical treatments, including sterilization, and referral of such require a personal recommendation based on research, writing, issued by the 3 § in working group referred to psychiatry specialist. Recommendation must be accompanied by the assent of the other 3 § in working group referred to specialist psychiatric doctor. " (my free translation based on Google translate)
source: http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/alkup/2002/20021053
Since we are both members of the EU I suppose there are some similarities.
[Updated on: Sun, 05 September 2010 14:45]
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112179 is a reply to message #112128 ] |
Sun, 05 September 2010 18:51 |
ZoeB
Messages: 1920
Registered: September 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia |
Senior Member
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| Hilary wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 02:32 | Zoe, a little more for you ... the UK has corrected the birth certificates for those with Intersex conditions since at least 1968.
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The Public Records Office requires a statement by 2 doctors present at the birth that a clerical error was made on the birth certificate in order to do so though. And the consent of both parents.
Hills, I've been in constant contact with the PRO on this one. I'm just repeating what they've told me (and others) in e-mails and letters.
Anyone not born at home with only a midwife present can get their BC changed, but only by bringing a case in the High Court. They then have to present medical evidence that their appearance was of the opposite sex to the one on the BC at the time of birth. The PRO takes the position that the BC is a historical record of appearance at birth, nothing else. The GRC change procedure is a specific exception to this (one they're not too happy about).
The GRA has nullified the situation prior to 2004 where Intersexed people who had had GRS could have their BCs changed by appealing to the Lord Chancellor (2 cases - including that of Petra Henderson, who I've been in contact with).
From the guidance on the GRP website
| Quote: | Report B must be made by a registered medical practioner (who may, but need not, practise in the field of gender dysphoria). For example, this report could be made by your GP.
This report must include specific details of treatment ie whether you have undergone, are undergoing or are planning to undergo surgery for the purpose of modifying sexual characteristics.
If you have not undergone surgery the report must explain why not.
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| Quote: | 2 Medical Report A
• provided by either a registered medical practitioner or a chartered psychologist practising in the field of gender dysphoria. This person must be registered with the GMC/ BPS/ RCP.
• must contain details of the diagnosis of gender dysphoria
• if the applicant has undergone, is undergoing or has planned surgery for the purpose of modifying sexual characteristics, either this report or the second medical report must contain specific details of the surgery.
3 Medical Report B
• provided by either a registered medical practitioner who may, but need not, work in the field of gender dysphoria. This person must be registered with the GMC/ BPS/ RCP.
• if the applicant has undergone, is undergoing or has planned surgery for the purpose of modifying sexual characteristics, either this report or the first medical report must contain details of the surgery.
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It is possible to get a GRC without having had surgery - as long as you can provide an acceptable (ie medical) excuse, or prove that you will be getting it soon.
However, if there are two people, situated identically, both post-op and otherwise qualified, and one has 46XY chromosomes, the other 47XXY - one can get a GRC, the other cannot. Caroline Cossey is in exactly this situation.
Hugs once more from the Zoe of Oz
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112202 is a reply to message #111688 ] |
Sun, 05 September 2010 22:15 |
Heli H
Messages: 2234
Registered: October 2007
Location: Siberian porch |
Senior Member |
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I have had a similar discussion in a Finnish forum about the same issue in Finnish (which is my mother tongue)
| Heli in Suomi24 | cisolettama
"Tiitteilevissä on aina ollut korjausprosessiin lähtijöitä. Kuten jotkut kirjoittivat, tiitteily on kevyempää, eikä vaadi suuria muutoksia elämässä, siksi teeässänkin on helpompi aloittaa siitä."
Cisolettaman mukaan transvestiitti ja transsukupuolinen ovat kummatkin miehiä, jotka vain esittävät naisia. Cisolettaman mukaan transsukupuolinen menee leikissään pidemmälle ja silvotuttaa kehoaan. Missään vaiheessa mieleen ei juolahda mikä motivaatio on taustalla, onko kyseessä kehon ristiriita vai pelkkä tarve pukeutua olemassa olevalla keholla. Miksi tiitit eivät hanki itselleen pysyviä muutoksia kehoonsa, jos on kerran tarve pitää näitä aste-eroina?
"En oikein ymmärrä miksi riitelette jostain transu sanasta. Onko se sitten kiva olla transsukupuolinen ja sekö termi muka tuo taviksilta sympatiaa. Cis-ihmiset todellisuudessa ajattelee ts:n olevan tiittejäkin pahemmin päästään sekaisin."
Transtukipistekin on mennyt mukavasti tähän vedätykseen. Itseäni ei ole paljon huvittanut käydä missään sellaisissa tilaisuuksissa, joissa lähtökohtana on cisolettama siitä että olen mies, jonka tarvitsee mekkoilla miehisistä lähtökohdistaan. Tiukan linjan feministeillekin transtaustainen nainen on aina mies.
Monissa maissa mukaan lukien Iso-Britannia interseksuaalien korjaus ei edellytä psykiatrista diagnoosia eikä syntymätodistus jää syntymäsukupuoleen vaan se voidaan muuttaa. Isossa-Britanniassa valtio vetoaa syntymätodistuksiin historiallisena aineistona, jota ei voi muuttaa. Siis cisolettama jälleen. Siellä Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) on vain paperi, jossa historiallinen ja muuttamaton sukupuoli todetaan vääräksi.
Sama tilanne on myös Suomessa. Vanha hetu jää latentiksi taustalle ja viranomaiset perustelevat että sitä tarvitaan vielä vanhojen tietojen vuoksi. Lisäksi uudessa väestörekisterilaissa (661/2009), sen 13§ 1 mom 15 kohta säätää, että rekisteriin tulee merkintä sukupuolen vaihtamisesta. Aivan kuin Isossa-Britanniassa, meidän GRC on vain paikka päälle. Vanha merkintä sukupuolesta on edelleen rekisterissä ja koko sukupuolen vahvistaminen on vain temppu vastakkaisen sukupuolen naimaoikeuden hankkimiseksi. Suomessa lisäksi se on järjestely passin hankkimiseksi (ja joka on ihmisoikeuksien vastainen, koska passin pitää vastata ihmisen ilmaisemaa sukupuolta)
Todellakin, transsukupuolisten oletetaan cisolettaman mukaisesti olevan vielä pahemmin päästään sekaisin kuin tiitit. Itse en kuitenkaan lähde mukaan tällaiseen vedätykseen vaan pidän itseäni naisena, vaikka sitten mielisairaaksi leimattuna ja miehen passilla matkustavana, ja miehen hetulla oikeustoimia tekevänä. Kas kun eivät ole keksineet rajoittaa transsukupuolisten oikeutta tehdä oikeustoimia.
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Source: http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/node/9297216/flat_thread/?comme ntrecall#comment-45726956
Cis Assumption
"Amongst the cross-dressing people there has always been people who have transitioned. As some wrote, cross-dressing is lighter, and does not require big changes in life. Thus it is lighter for a TS to start with it."
In accordance with the cis assumption a cross-dresser and a transsexual are both men who only present women. In accordance with the cis assumption a transsexual goes further in his play and gets his body mutilated. Nowhere in the process it does not occur to anybody what is the motivation behind, is it body dysphoria or only a need to dress with the existing body. Why don't cross-dressers acquire themselves permanent changes to their bodies if there is a need to consider these as gradual differences of the same phenomenon?
"I cannot quite understand why are you quarrelling about a tranny word. Is it nice to be transsexual and does that term bring you sympathy from the ordinary people. Cis people think, in reality, that a TS is even more nuts than a crossdresser."
The Trans Support Centre has gone quite nicely to this scam. I have not particularly liked to attend in such events where there is a basic assumption that I am a man who has a need to wear women's clothes from his male starting points. For the hard line feminists a woman with transsexual past is always a man too.
In many countries including the UK the rectification of intersexual individuals does not require a psychiatric diagnosis and the birth certificate does not remain in the birth sex but it can be rectified. In the UK the state invokes to the birth certificates a historical documents that cannot be rectified. So it is the cis assumption once again. There the Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) is only a paper where the historic and unchangeable gender is stated as wrong.
There is a similar situation in Finland. The old male personal identity number remains as latent in the background and the officials reason it that it is needed for the sake of old information. In addition in the new Census Act (661/2009), in its Secton 13 para 1 subsection 15 there is stipulated that there will be an entry in the system about the sex change. Alike to the situation in the UK our GRC is only a patch on the old. The old record about gender is still in the register and it is a trick in order to get a right to marry with the opposite gender. In Finland it is also an arrangement to obtain a new female passport (and what is against the human rights because the passport has to indicate the acquired gender anyways)
Indeed, transsexual individuals are assumed to be more nuts than crossdressers in accordance with the cis assumption. I do not buy this scam and I consider myself as a woman, though I am classified as a mental case and a man in my passport, and making legal acts as a man. I wonder why they have not invented to limit my ability to make legal acts anyways.
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112208 is a reply to message #112202 ] |
Mon, 06 September 2010 00:06 |
Hilary
Messages: 5534
Registered: October 2007
Location: 2, Camberwick Green, Trum... |
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BL Administrator (Retired)
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| Heli H wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 01:15 | ...
In many countries including the UK the rectification of intersexual individuals does not require a psychiatric diagnosis and the birth certificate does not remain in the birth sex but it can be rectified. In the UK the state invokes to the birth certificates a historical documents that cannot be rectified.
...
Indeed, transsexual individuals are assumed to be more nuts than crossdressers in accordance with the cis assumption. I do not buy this scam and I consider myself as a woman, though I am classified as a mental case and a man in my passport, and making legal acts as a man. I wonder why they have not invented to limit my ability to make legal acts anyways.
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Heli - the top two sentences seem to contradict each other; one says a UK birth certificate can be amended, the second says it cannot.
We all know the struggle you put up against your situation, and I am sorry you are classified as mental case.
I repeat, in the UK, the government does not assume this, and their is no requirement for sterilization.
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112212 is a reply to message #112208 ] |
Mon, 06 September 2010 00:33 |
Heli H
Messages: 2234
Registered: October 2007
Location: Siberian porch |
Senior Member |
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| Hilary wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 10:06 | | Heli H wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 01:15 | ...
In many countries including the UK the rectification of intersexual individuals does not require a psychiatric diagnosis and the birth certificate does not remain in the birth sex but it can be rectified. In the UK the state invokes to the birth certificates a historical documents that cannot be rectified.
...
Indeed, transsexual individuals are assumed to be more nuts than crossdressers in accordance with the cis assumption. I do not buy this scam and I consider myself as a woman, though I am classified as a mental case and a man in my passport, and making legal acts as a man. I wonder why they have not invented to limit my ability to make legal acts anyways.
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Heli - the top two sentences seem to contradict each other; one says a UK birth certificate can be amended, the second says it cannot.
We all know the struggle you put up against your situation, and I am sorry you are classified as mental case.
I repeat, in the UK, the government does not assume this, and their is no requirement for sterilization.
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I wrote that birth certificates / wrongly gendered personal identity numbers cannot be rectified. I mean here that the old information stays unchanged. As far as I have understood the verb to amend right, it means that the information is not rectified i.e. overwritten but amended. And amendment is additional information concerning the original information which stays unchanged, intact.
I am not worried about my classifications. What means to me is my ability to fight against this oppression. I have chosen to stay free and not enslaved or shoehorned into a legal straitjacket.
edit: Pardon my English I used in a hurry. To rectify is a correct verb but in this context the verb to correct would be more appropriate.
[Updated on: Mon, 06 September 2010 01:57]
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112279 is a reply to message #112182 ] |
Mon, 06 September 2010 09:49 |
ZoeB
Messages: 1920
Registered: September 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia |
Senior Member
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| Hilary wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 12:05 | Zoe - this is what I have been saying ... it is possible for Intersex people in the UK to Change their BCs. The GRA does apply (since this applies to people with GID, not IS conditions - you seem to confuse the two).
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Hills - an Intersex condition precludes a diagnosis of Transsexuality under the ICD-10. Hence they are unable to qualify. The GRA does not and cannot apply to Intersexed people, as they cannot supply the required medical evidence. Intersexed people can only get an amended birth certificate (not a new one, as with the GRA) if they can prove a clerical error was made.
From the ICD-10.
| Quote: | F64.0 Transsexualism
A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex and a wish to have hormonal treatment and surgery to make one's body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex.
Diagnostic guidelines
For this diagnosis to be made, the transsexual identity should have been present persistently for at least 2 years, and must not be a symptom of another mental disorder, such as schizophrenia, or associated with any intersex, genetic, or sex chromosome abnormality.
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As I said, Caroline Cossey is unable to get a GRC purely and simply because she has 47XXY chromosomes. If she had 46XY ones, she could be diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria. Because she has an Intersex condition, she cannot have Gender Dysphoria.
I'm in the same situation.
The US DSM-IV-TR has a similar exclusion - but does allow a diagnosis of GIDNOS - a diagnosis which also applies to non-fetishistic and part-time crossdressers with no desire for surgery. But that is immaterial, it's the ICD-10 that counts.
Hugs (yet again!) from the Zoe of Oz
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112327 is a reply to message #112309 ] |
Mon, 06 September 2010 13:50 |
Hilary
Messages: 5534
Registered: October 2007
Location: 2, Camberwick Green, Trum... |
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BL Administrator (Retired)
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| Heli H wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 14:53 | "Why not just change the original birth record?
The original birth record is an accurate record of the facts at the time of birth.
As with other birth records where there is a change of status, for example adoption or legitimation of a child on the parents' marriage, the first record remains and a new one is created to supersede the original.
The Government has said all along that it does not intend history to be re-written. Original birth records will remain in existence, unamended, and certified copies will continue to be made available when needed, as currently happens."
source: http://www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/transsex/birthfaq.htm#par t3
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Heli .... that is talking about the birth record. We were talking a birth certificate. Of course the authorities can always retrieve information about the original birth; it would be stupid to assume otherwise.
We were talking about a birth certificate, which in the UK, and other places is used to open bank accounts etc, i.e. a public record. Actually in the UK, this is known as a certified copy of an entry in the births and deaths register.
In the UK, it is possible to acquire a new, changed (not amended) birth certificate for public use, ie bank accounts, pensions, income tax, employers, schools etc.
My birth certificate says "female". It does not say "amended", or "changed". There is no asterisk on my birth certificate.
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| Re: No "pregnant man" for Western Australia? [message #112328 is a reply to message #112325 ] |
Mon, 06 September 2010 13:55 |
Hilary
Messages: 5534
Registered: October 2007
Location: 2, Camberwick Green, Trum... |
Senior Member
BL Administrator (Retired)
BL3d |
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| Heli H wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 16:35 | Ladyhawke,
If we give up the concept of gender binary, then what is the concept of transgendered? Trans what? You cannot trans something that does not exist.
If you enhance your physical appearance to appear in both genders are you really andogynous? If you have round breasts and a penis are you androgynous, or are you more androgynous if you lack both? Nobody has set these standards because the concept of standard does not exist in that gender spectrum world.
Today unfortunately my daughter injured her ankle so we had to have some x-rays taken and visit a doctor. I explained something to my daughter and the doctor agreed and told my daughter to follow the advice of mom. I am her dad not mom! This is a test how many genders there are really. He judged genders as he sees them. And the majority of the population do believe in gender binary, cisgender assumpion and in heteronorm.
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Heli ... those terms, especially transsexual were termed by people living 50 or 60 years ago. Times have changed. People have moved on.
Gender is a spectrum, with (maybe) male and female, and hence transsexualism, at either extreme. Either way, there is a spectrum.
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